Ethics of sending native seeds overseas

[Bluetongue]

Hi Greg,
Appreciate your contributions to the forum.
I'm wondering whether it's my behaviour you're questioning?

I've never had the plant (yam daisy) self-seed in my own garden, so this is new info for me. The person I mailed it to is just as concerned about weeds as us, and assured me that they would monitor the plant and let me know of any problems.

Fellow bushfoodies, plus post office, customs and quarantine staff couldn't tell me whether there were any problems and could only tell me to clearly label the seed on the package and make sure there was no detritus included with it. So at the time I thought I was covering all my bases. The idea of exporting weeds is anathema to me, so new info is most welcome.

If you are aware of a database that we can access to check dubious plants... or a person/organisation we can check with, please feel free to post it here. If I should have treated the seed somehow, I'd like to know about that too.

Cheers.

Same goes for anyone else - if you see a problem, educate us rather than attacking. Think of it as practice for dealing with people who don't even care in the first place. This is too important an issue to get peoples hackles up... hackles don't encourage behavioural change.

[boylesg]

Without going back through the posts I can't remember who it was that posted yam seeds but if it was indeed you then yes, I am questioning your actions.

It was the 'plains form' or Microseris lanceolata that I have direct experience of but I doubt that the "hill form" will be much different. Like I said the only reason why any wild species could be a staple food is if it is highly aggressive coloniser and extremely abundant.

I think the safest thing to do is to simply not post live biological materials overseas or if you must then go through AQIS.

I have enquired about sending plants and seeds overseas, out of interest more than actually intending to do it, and was told that you must obtain an import permit from the destination country and have the plants/seeds tested for pathogens etc in order to comply with Australian quarentine laws.

[boylesg]

Same goes for anyone else - if you see a problem, educate us rather than attacking. Think of it as practice for dealing with people who don't even care in the first place. This is too important an issue to get peoples hackles up... hackles don't encourage behavioural change.

And I am not particularly attacking, in the sense of labour and liberal during parliamentary question time, you or anyone else merely criticising what I see as inappropriate behaviour as members of the global ecosystem and expressing my justifiable disappointment.

Being 'attacked' is a perception of the person(s) receiving the criticism.

[klutsz]

It is great to see both Bluetongue and Boylesg engaging in a topic that I think often ends up in the too hard basket. Good to see Bluetongue has been responsible (finding out the legal responsibilities and being transparent with regards to posting overseas). Further more it's also great to see someone as keen as Boylesg post his opinions on the forum (though you could take a deep breath once in awhile….. just teasing ). The fact that both have enquired on the 'rights and wrongs' certainly changes my assumption of people haphazardly posting plant material without any care.

I hope this following story provides some incite as to what can happen. Back in the early 90's after living on small island of Europe for a year I sent some Sturt desert peas seeds to a friend on the island, I though what a joke, they probably won't grow, as I've had no success myself until recently and the island is covered in snow for 3-4 months of the year so what chance would they have of ever becoming a weed or growing for that matter . At this point it's worth pointing out that the seeds are sold at any Australiana gift shop at most airports around Australia. Four months latter I received mail from my friends with photos of the plants grow throughout their garden in full flower (can you imagine how frustrating it was when I could not even get them to grow here) . They died in the winter but the seeds germinated and grow in profusion the next summer . At that point I rang and suggested that maybe it would be an idea to kill them. They already had done so with the same concerns. 14 years latter and there are no more plants coming up (they did though for the next 2 years). My point is it’s a hard call to identify what has weed potential. Have a look at this South African site and see how many Ozzies are in the list.
http://www.plantzafrica.com/miscell/aliens6.htm
(I was surprised to see E. Camaldulensis considering Landcare groups are planting these guys along river and creeks due to poor natural recruitment)

On the flip side I believe that a lot of our bushtucker food will unlikely be accepted by the general public (or at best very very slowly) without overseas interest and development. Too many people I know have tried bushtucker food, claimed they like it, only to then ditch it once they found out it was bushtucker (sorry readers I believe we are a minority) . I once read in a book ('Going Native') that suggested that the public turned its nose up at Bushtucker at the turn of the century (1800s-1900s). It was perceived that native food was for peasants and that cultured people ate chicken and lamb with the traditional vegies

Sadly many people tend to look over our own products and assume the foreign option is better. My question is to develop some of our bush tucker beyond the boutique level do we need to have an overseas phase to promote it as acceptable to the wider community? Additionally I believe there are some opportunities for out bushtucker food to be utilised by people in harsh climates that are subjected to famine etc (there's a whole other story).

I think there are a whole lot of grey areas when you try and marry the two points together. I think it's great that both Bluetongue and Boylesg have opened up the can for discussion and both have pointed out there efforts to identify what legal responsibilities there are and been open with their opinions.

I hope that more people post there opinions etc on this issue, but for that to happen I think people need to feel like they can without emotions running away in sequential postings. I hope people can be mindful of this and allow a healthy discussion to follow .

Where do I stand, well I would love to here more thoughts on the issue .

Cheers Klutsz

[boylesg]

Even with my modest experience I would have pegged Sturt's Desert Pea as a relatively safe plant to send overseas.

It just goes to show that there is really no way to predict which of our plants are likely to be invasive over seas and which are not.

Was thinking that things like Quandongs and Finger Limes and Davidson Plums would also be relatively safe but after reading your story I find myself re-thinking even those assumptions.

There is no resource that I am aware of that will provide you with info about the invasiveness of Australian species over seas. I think the only stance that one can take is to assume the worst about a plant species (importing exotic species or exporting Australian species) unless you have incontravertible scientific evidence to the contrary.

As far as Australian species within Australia here is a useful resource: http://www.rbg.vic.gov.au/cgi-bin/avhpu ... 8255624574

You plug in the genus and species name, click the "Show By Species" option and you will get a distribution map of the species across Australia.

I make it a rule of thumb not to post species whose distribution does not extend to the destination within Australia. E.G. I will post plants of Solanum aviculare to NSW and QLD, because its distribution extends right up the east coast, but I will not post Solanum laciniatum that is limited to the south eastern corner of the continent.

Even this would be regarded as sacrilege by the more 'anal' in the industry because you are 'contaminating' local gene pools with alien genes. I happen to believe that introducing new genetic material to isolated and in bred populations may well improve their fecundity.

Except perhaps with Grevillea that tend to hybridize across species boundaries and fundamentally alter the wild populations.

[Bluetongue]

That experience with the Sturt desert peas was an eye opener, klutsz! Same with the African website. Holy moley.
And I know what you mean about the bush tucker label... I've stopped telling people that certain plants in my garden are bush tucker unless they express a prior interest. They'll try the Island celery if I call it perennial celery, and the Warrigal greens if I call it perennial spinach, but as soon as I call it bushfood they back off. I don't know why, just guessed that it was a fear that I was going to poison them somehow. I think you're right about it being associated with peasant food... I heard someone on the radio recently say that they can't stand the idea of eating kangaroo because they grew up poor in the bush and roo was all they had to eat for ages.

Thanks Greg for that website resource.

I can understand your disappointment Greg. It is disappointing when you think someone 'should' know better. Trouble is that we're all at different points of understanding. There are a few things that I feel particularly passionate about, like tourists feeding wild birds (an annual influx of sick starving birds to places like the Healesville Sanctuary when the tourists have left town is heartbreaking). Learning to speak to people about this in a friendly educational fashion is one of my own life lessons.

I don't have anything to add at this point except to reiterate the general observation that this is a topic where tempers tend to flare easily. (Rimbaud in his original post to this thread said that he'd been flamed for his views). As an admin person I want this forum to be an inclusive place of learning. People from a wide range of backgrounds use the site and I want everyone to feel safe to express their opinions or ask questions without fear of attack. So flaming won't be tolerated.

Now carry on

[planthunter]

Hi All,

I am very gratefull to the kind soul who sent me seed of Marsdenia australis from Kalgoorlie in Western OZ earlier this year. This seed was commercially available from Outback Chef but they then stopped sending it overseas as the owner Debbie informed me, from fear of competition from potential growers from outside OZ. At the time only one of the seeds I purchased from them survived to grow into a healthy plant. I,m not knocking them at all but if it were not for this person in Kalgoorlie there would be no Silky pear vines to give to respectable scientific institutions in the UK and share with all of you guys.

Best Wishes,

Planthunter,

[klutsz]

Hi Planthunter

Glad to hear your Marsdenia is doing fine, mine is struggling a bit but I am hopeful it may pick up with the warmer weather coming on.
I guess some of the good points in past posting might be worth considering with regards to bringing in new plants to your garden.
I would check my legal responsibilities (as pointed out by Bluetongue) and then apply some of your own. As many government departments have very specific job outlines on what they deal with/enforce, they might not necessary cover what you are try to understand. For example Local government vary widely on what they do or don't do with regards to weeds, so a 'yes you can' might be just a nice way of saying 'get of the phone' (not local-gov bashing here as some are very impressive with what they do). So it's worth employing a safety net to cover their lack off interest, knowledge or concern with what you are proposing to bring in. This includes considering the following points first (worth applying to any plants you intend on bringing into your garden)

• Climatic range, is the climate simular to where it grows naturally, if it is then it may pose a problem
• Reproductive capacity, is it a prolific seeder, or does it have long lived propagules
• Know the full botanical name of the species you are bringing in, by comparing the genus and family to genera and families of known weeds in your area can serve as a very useful indication of its weed potential. So for southern Aust- Mimosa, Fabaciea, Euphorbia, Salix all ring alarm bells to me
• Where do you plan to grow it, could the area be easily managed if your plants become too vigorous?
• And if it did become a problem are you committed to removing it, ('it looks pretty so I can't bring myself to remove it' just doesn't cut it). I collect many native plants and have had to kill seven to date (2 indigenous) due to its vigorous nature (the indigs were just taking over too much)

I really think its worth sourcing out an authority who is interested and has the capacity to identify if its going to be a problem but if your going to cheat at least consider the above points.
I often point out plants in peoples gardens (friends) that are environmental weeds (or agricultural). The reply I often get is 'but I'm managing it, I always cut the seeds off blah blah'. I can't think of one of them who have remained committed to their statement, something always comes up. One final comment, if a weed did get away, consider the impacts, who want to be the next 'Thomas Austin' of the 21st century. The invasion upon an agricultural enterprise by a weed reduces their ability to make a living, imagine someone reducing your wage by 20, 30, 40%.....I would not be impressed.

Cheers Klutsz

[planthunter]

Mardenia australis would have a tough time of it outside here in the UK due to the cold wet winters and frost so my plants will only survive as a greenhouse plant so I am completly confident it will never pose a problem to native flora and fauna here.
If it got out into southern Europe or Africa for instance then that would perhaps be a different matter.

[boylesg]

Mardenia australis would have a tough time of it outside here in the UK due to the cold wet winters and frost so my plants will only survive as a greenhouse plant so I am completly confident it will never pose a problem to native flora and fauna here.
If it got out into southern Europe or Africa for instance then that would perhaps be a different matter.

Remember the global climate appears to be changing whether it is due to human CO2 emissions or other factos.

Who can really predict in the long term what that will mean for Mardenia australis in the UK. Or any other species.

I suppose it is well contained in a green house.

But what I have said still stands. Assume the worst about any exotic plant species unless you have irrefutable scientific or at least anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

[planthunter]

Point taken, the weather even over here is getting warmer over a longer period of time with the winters getting shorter.
I have found though that the success of a plant species becoming a pest in its adopted land can be thwarted if it can be a tasty addition to the local menu, not just the fruit but the whole plant. For instance the UK is snail and slug nervana. They even have a go at my Wollemi pine!

[klutsz]

Hey and worst case scenario, if the UK develops an inland Australian climate Marsdenia will become a weed scrabbling up the Banana and Coconut trees on the chain of small islands that were not inundated in water from the ice caps melting


Sorry guys, but I thought it was about time we had a laugh in this thread!!

And I do appreciate that climate change posses a real and continuing threat. The island that I lived on now tends to only have sporadic snow events (and has even missed out on snow some years in the last decade) and the farms are only getting a second cut of their hay every second year or so. Additionally, I have been privy to some weed modelling here in Victoria and there is one weed expected to be absent within twenty years (though with irrigation I think it will still have a presence).

Your right Plant hunter there are many other factors other than temperature and precipitation. Humidity, herbivore, soil type (I don't believe that the Sturt desert pea would have really become a weed on the island as the soils there are very alkaline unlike the garden they where growing in), host pollinator, locality to the environment and ………….. lots more.

I can appreciate your snail and slug problem, I loose so many plants to them. Have tried everything, beer traps, snail bait, Bluetongue lizard (sorry Bluetongue, no pun intended). The best seems to be by reducing the numbers before placing out baits. I do this by buying an iceberg lettuce (snails love them) and placing the broken up pieces at 1-2m intervals in the garden after watering. Late in the evening I go around and pick the lettuce + snails up, seems to knock the population back for awhile.

Back on track, I think we should acknowledge that Planthunter possibly has a better idea of what is happening in his/her own garden, locality, country than we do. He/she sounds like a responsible gardener/enthusiast.
I hope some of the information in these postings assists people in their judgment of bringing plants into their garden.

Cheers Klutsz

Ps sorry to hear about the snails on your Wooli, they have left mine alone so far, you must have some really nasty ones there

[planthunter]

If Klutsz's vision of my UK homeland were to come true then I would be a very happy man! Imagion it, coconut nut and banana trees with my marsdenia climbing up them wow! Maybe in a few hundred years perhaps.
The acccount of Sturts desert pea is an interesting one and brings me on to a discovery I made on Thursday this last week. To try and not bore you to tears I'll keep it brief. As I am aware Eucyliptus trees do produce viable seed over here in the UK but are not known to be able to germinate and grow into seedlings and establish themselves as possible pest species as they have done in Spain and over in the warmer parts of the USA.
I'm fourtunate to be able to walk home from my office after work and part of my route passes a now sadly deralict Botanical College with gorgeous species from all over the world but especially from the Southern Hemisphere growing as specimen trees, shrubs ect in the grounds. In one part is a grove of approx 10 huge 100 foot plus hugh Eucyliptus trees. I'm not completly sure what mix of species they are as the leaves vary from small oval to large sickle shaped as mature foliage but they all have beautifull trunks and branches that have a mottled multiculoured finish. The spot where they are growing is sheltered and gets very little frost in winter. Since finding out that a developer has bought the property and land to build on it I fear for their future, so despite it being private land I decided to take a discreet closer look at them by walking through a large hole in the fence and to take some photos. As I walked round and inspected them I just happened to glance at the grass which seemed different. As expected there was a lot of acumillated gum tree leaf litter along with seed capsules, twigs, sheets of bark ect.
Also lots of seedlings among the trees ranging from tiny 1 inch high to some almost a foot high and one young sapling approx 5 foot high close to its parent. The more I looked, the more I saw. The largest being quite close to the adult trees presumibly their close proximity saving them from previous mowings. They were baby gum trees! loads and loads of them everywhere! Having never seen anything like it before, and I have looked under adult gum trees any where I've found them just in case, it was absolutly magical especially with this current debate in motion. I returned on Friday after work and dug up 4 babies to save them from the diggers and will go back for some more tomorow after work. I can only hope that the developer will not cut them down. At least I have witnesed a tiny bit of natures wonder doing what it does best given half a chance, adapting to a new enviroment halfway across the world.
The snails on my Wollemi pine are Helix aspersa, although the latin name was recently changed, a very common species over here. They tend not to be bothered with pine trees generaly but they seem to like hiding amongst the leaves. Maybe it could be the massive orange slugs that are crawling over everything at the moment including my prized pine. There are tiny rasp like marks on some of the leaves and are now sealed with resin along with the resin caps.
All The Best,
Alan,

[boylesg]

Back on track, I think we should acknowledge that Planthunter possibly has a better idea of what is happening in his/her own garden, locality, country than we do. He/she sounds like a responsible gardener/enthusiast.

No one can possibly know this with any certainty even with decades of living in the same area.

Potential weeds first undergo the process of naturalisation where by the form self replicating populations and undergo a bit of natural selection. Eventually varieties arise that are best adapted to the local conditions and are poised to take off.

It can then take many decades before an 'event' results in the seeds being moved to new locations to form further self replicating populations. That event might be earth moving, rubble dumping or floods. This might well occur after the person who introduced the plant is long dead and the new owners of the property are blissfully unaware of the environmental weed issue.

This whole process often takes longer than the life time of an individual and hence, by the time the local population and authorities realise they have a problem, it is almost always far to late to have any chance of erradicating it.

Sturt's Desert Pea is clearly a prolific seeder and a primary coloniser in its desert environment. So it stands to reason that it is a prime candidate for being an australian environmental weed overseas.

Make no assumptions about the plant in question or the experience and expertise of the person.

[boylesg]

At least I have witnesed a tiny bit of natures wonder doing what it does best given half a chance, adapting to a new enviroment halfway across the world.
,

You say "point taken" but clearly you still do not recognize the danger of foreign plants.

Your government and your primary producers will not be sharing your wonder at nature if, several decades down the track, those very Eucalypts are infesting large swathes of your grazing land and costing your economy billions of dollars annually to control them.

Eucalypts are very efficient at sucking the soil bone dry and preventing grass from growing near them - a potent issue if your rainfall is declining due to global warming as is ours.