Was A.maidenii used by Aborigines?

[Rimbaud]

Does anyone know if this Acacia (or other Acacias with similar chemical constituents) was ever actually used by Aborigines, or is the tryptamine content a recent discovery by Europeans? i.e. was the bark ever harvested and used in a way similar to how the indigenous South Americans used preparations of Cebil, B. caapi, Psychotria species etc?

Would it have been possible for people without lab equipment to use this plant shamanically?

Sorry if this has been discussed before elsewhere...

[darcy]

BUT, it hasn't been discussed here before

I guess we won't know as most of their knowledge was passed down the generations and since this was broken with failed assimilation, most knowledge is lost. I think we can only assume.

My guess is that they would have known of the 'magic' of some of the Acacias. You don't spend 40,000+ years somewhere and not know a hell of a lot about your environment

They were quite happy when the Europeans gave them pots for boiling evidently, something they took to quickly. So boiling down a heap of bark, leaves probably wasn't a method for them. I guess they were quite big with this 'smoking' (throwing leaves etc on a fire and holding babies over it, etc) of adults, children for health, get rid of spirits, disease,etc so perhaps using the right species for this smoke therapy would result in intoxication.

Anyone else?

[dom]

Hi Everyone,

In my non expert opinion, I would say it would have been pretty unlikely for aborigines to have been familiar with the magic of acacias.

Acacias may well have been used for other compounds they contained but not for DMT.

Inhaling smoke from bark or leaves alone would be very unlikely to have resulted in entheogenic effects, and oral use probably did not happen due to the lack of a suitable native MAO inhibitor.


Dom

[indole]

There are many records of 'smoking', ie what SQLDBeef describes, being a very common form of administration amongst native peoples. Many of the records are of species which we now know to be tryptaminelicious being used in this way.

But I imagine one would have to inhale a hell of a lot of smoke to get more than barely noticeable effects from this method.

[Rimbaud]

is the idea of "smudging", for instance with burning sage etc., is that also a method of ingestion for active compounds?

sometimes cultural practices seem to have one intent, but actually have a hidden intent

for example when monks chant, after many hours of chanting there is excess CO2 building up in the system. This gives them "insights" and an altered state of consciousness (this is in Doors of Perception or Heaven and Hell, one of those two, i forget)

so maybe when people talka bout smoke baths, ritual smudging, etc, the cultural practice hides a chemical intake method?

p.s. Dom it says in your "about me" thingie that you're into chess. Do you play on FICS or ICC at all?

[Benzito]

I think I remember reading a reference that likened smudging to 'turning on' the senses for a drug. I think it was in relation to Salvia.
They recommended Salvia Divinorum smudge sticks, be burnt in the room, when smoking Salvia. I would imagine this would be similar to chewing a small quid, for sub-lingual style absorption, before hand. Just give you sub-threshold levels of Salvinorin (or insert your active chemical here), ready to be unlocked once the goodness is ingested properly.
Maybe I'm a crackhead?

[rev]

maidenii is a dud

itd be far more pertinent to be looking at othe specieswith much more reliable contnents
i know for a fact that some reliably active high yielding species had a high position in some tribes ethnobotany albeit a i know for their many other uses.

[Kristi]

some plants used here for smoking ceremonies I have heard called acacias (Im not a science person dont ask me for names ok) but if I find a picture of the one Im thinking of I will put a link here.

Just mainly wanted to point out that while some plants used in smoking ceremonies did have specific purposes like cleansing or welcoming...the purpose was more of spiritual one...and while I know the smoke probably contains chemicals that helped nyungars (or others) achieve this...they just didnt do them for the sole purpose of getting high

There is no doubt that you feel different during a ceremony but I could not say whether it was because of the plant or because of the spiritual aspect.

did that make sense

[Bluetongue]

Perfect sense

[mulga]

Amazing how this thread started almost exactly one year ago, died, and then Kristi comes and picks it up again.
Wonder myself if it might be a subtle reminder of the approaching wattle day (Sep 1st, or Aug 1st maybe in some places).

Welcome Kristi, as with Bluetongue I think what you say makes a lot of sense.

I gather acacias were often used for smoking ceremonies, especially for new born babies and their mothers.
One excellent book you should connect with, if you don't know it already, is called Traditonal Bush Medicine: An Aboriginal Pharmacopeia (published in the NT and should be available new or second hand somewhere over there).
It has pictures and descriptions of plant use, including smoking ceremonies with Acacia, from the Walpiri, Mudburra and Jingulu people of central NT area.
Not made it to WA yet, but as far as plants go it's one of the most unique and diverse places in the world. Not a bad place to learn.
All the best.

[prier]

The idea of psychedelic smudge sticks is great, recently me and some friends have been playing around with making candles containing active herbs.
Instead of a thin wick we've been using a wack of messmate bark, the candle burns away really quickly, 10in piece lasting between 40mins to an hour.

Wormwood was really effective, my friend almost lost the plot whilst holding his face directly above the smoke.

We haven't got around to it yet, but we're planning on making some up using acacia leaves/bark. Will keep posted on results...

[sporadica]

I guess we will never really know for sure, but i can confidently say that if it was there they wouldnt have missed it. How could they? Some effects CAN be felt, albeit very mild, by burning some parts of certain acacias and apparently another acacia contains tetrahyrdoharmine, a MAOI. If these two species were combined then the tryptamine DMT would become oraly active and available to the user.
I cant see how this would have gone unoticed by the aboriginals of the area.

Dreamtime stories and art make alot more sense to me these days

[indole]

apparently another acacia contains tetrahyrdoharmine, a MAOI.

Can you provide some evidence for this?

[darcy]

Can't remember the source, perhaps Erowid or Bock:

Acacia complanata - Reported to contain up to 0.3% N-methyltetrahydroharman. Also present as a trace is tetrahydroharman.

[sporadica]

here is a whole list of plants containing the compound in question

Plants Containing MAO-Inhibiting Beta-Carbolines.

AGARICACEAE

Coriolus maximus [Harman]

APOCYNACEAE

Amsonia tabernaemontana [Harmine etc.]
Apocynum cannabinum [Harmalol]
Ochrosia nakaiana [Harman]

BIGNONIACEAE

Newbouldia laevis [Harman]

CALYCANTHACEAE

Calycanthus occidentalis [Harmine]

CHENOPODIACEAE

Hammada leptoclada [Tetrahydroharman etc.]
Kochia scoparia [Harmine etc.]

COMBRETACEAE

Guiera senegalensis [Harman etc.]

CYBERACEAE

Carex brevicollis [Harmine etc.]

ELAEAGNACEAE

Elaeagnus augustifolia [Harman etc.]
Elaeagnus hortensis [Tetrahydroharman etc.]
Elaeagnus orientalis [Tetrahydroharman]
Elaeagnus spinosa [Tetrahydroharman]
Hippophae rhammoides [Harman etc.]
Shepherdia argentea [Tetrahydroharmol]
Shepherdia canadensis [Tetrahydroharmol]

GRAMINEAE

Arundo donax [Tetrahydroharman]
Festuca arundinacea [Harman etc.]
Lolium perenne [Harman etc.]

LEGUMINOSAE

* Acacia baileyana [Tetrahydroharman] *
* Acacia complanata [Tetrahydroharman etc.] *
Burkea africana [Harman etc.]
Desmodium pulchellum [Harman etc.]
Mucuna pruriens [6-Methoxy-Harman]
Petalostylis labicheoides [Tetrahydroharman]
Prosopis nigra [Harman etc.]

LOGANIACEAE

Strychnos usambarensis [Harman]

MALPIGHIACEAE

Banisteriopsis caapi [Harmine etc.]
Banisteriopsis lutea [Harmine]
Banisteriopsis muricata [Harmine]
Callaeum antifebrile (= Cabe paraensis) [Harmine]

MYRISTICACEAE

Virola cuspidata [6-Methoxy-Harman]

PASSIFLORACEAE

Passiflora actinea [Harman = Passiflorine]
Passiflora alata [Harman]
Passiflora alba [Harman]
Passiflora bryonoides [Harman]
Passiflora caerulea [Harman]
Passiflora capsularis [Harman]
Passiflora decaisneana [Harman]
Passiflora edulis [Harman]
Passiflora eichleriana [Harman]
Passiflora foetida [Harman]
Passiflora incarnata [Harmine, Harmaline, Harman, etc.]
Passiflora quadrangularis [Harman]
Passiflora ruberosa [Harman]
Passiflora subpeltata [Harman]
Passiflora warmingii [Harman]

POLYGONACEAE

Leptactinia densiflora [Leptaflorine, etc.]
Nauclea diderrichii [Harman etc.]
Ophiorrhiza japonica [Harman]
Pauridiantha callicarpoides [Harman]
Pauridiantha dewevrei [Harman]
Pauridiantha lyalli [Harman]
Pauridiantha viridiflora [Harman]
Simira klugii [Harman]
Simira rubra [Harman]
Uncaria attenuata [Harman]
Uncaria canescens [Harman]
Uncaria orientalis [Harman]

SAPOTACEAE

Chrysophyllum lacouritianum [Norharman etc.]

SYMPLOCACEAE

Symplocos racemosa [Harman]

ZYGOPHYLLACEAE

Fagonia cretica [Harman]
Peganum harmala [Harmaline, Harmine, etc.]
Tribulus terrestris [Harmine etc.]
Zaygophyllum fabago [Harmine etc.]

Obviuosly not all Australian natives, but the acacias are listed. [/b]