Warning on toxicity issues regarding Koa Windsong DVDs.

[PeterHardwick]

peter its like you have not read what i wrote.you miss the point that no child will eat a horrible tasting anything.and common sense not to eat anything on a regular basis that taste medicinal.

Koa, you missed the point. People - including children - have been eating the toxic bitter weeds, like billy goat weed - which means that your theory that there's no danger from your poisonous plant misinformation because of the unpalatable bitter "medicinal" flavours in the toxic plants is totally wrong.

I'll elaborate on the case of the woman and her child who ate toxic billy goat weed regularly. She said that she included the billy goat weed flowers into her salad mix, along with her standard salad ingredients. By mixing and diluting the bitter flavour of the toxic Ageratum in those salad mixes, it's totally conceivable that she could have eaten large quantities of billy goat weed. There's every possibility that other people are doing a similar thing.

People figure out how to make those toxic bitter weeds palatable. Edible rocket tastes bitter, and yet many people eat it regularly in salads. It's conceivable that many of your poisonous plant recommendations like wandering jew, tobacco bush berries, billy got weed, black nightshade and thickhead could be whipped up into some toxic weed mescal, mixed with standard salad ingredients to disguise the bitter flavour.

also i have stated that i do not sell the childrens dvd

Koa, you are the person featured on the DVD Bush Tucker with Koa telling children to eat toxic billy goat weed; potentially fatal tobacco bush berries; grasses; and allergenic wandering jew and Grevillea nectar.

You are responsible for the misinformation on that DVD. It's morally reprehensible to walk away from that.

i devote a whole chapter in walksfly 3 on the mistakes. my latest film also has a segment on the mistakes.

Sorry Koa, I've seen that segment on Walking Softly 3 and it's totally inadequate. You don't specifically correct all the mistakes, so people would be guessing which plants you are talking about. Also, if people don't have that latest version of you DVDs, they don't know about these dangerous mistakes.

What are you going to do about the thousands of people who have got those early DVDs, and BT with Koa (is that still being distributed?).

Your blogsite didn't really cover the issue of your toxic weed mistakes. To be straight-forward, judging by your comments on this thread, you are still coming to terms with the problem.

But the issue has been dragging on for too long, and people are at risk of getting poisoned if they are not told. That's why I've gone online to warn people who may have the DVDs. It's what you should be doing.

and what about you telling people that its okey to take a bite of a unidentified mushroom and par boiling renders it safe.that from my perspective is far worse than the mistakes i have made.mushrooms poison more people than any other plant on earth.

Where? Please give me the quote (the full paragraph) on where I've supposedly told people to eat unidentified mushrooms parboiled.

Koa, you just can't make these things up!

one fatality by tobacco bush i would like to see the details on that

Sure, page 663, Poisonous Plants of Australia, S.L.Everist, 1974:

Watt and Breyer-Brandwijk (1962) noted that fatal poisoning in humans has been ascribed to consumption of fruit in South Africa

And on toxin levels:

High contents of solasodine were found in both population of S. mauritianum (from 2% to 3.5% of total dry weight) (Vieira 1989).
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proc ... 4-152.html

Everist, 1974, also identifies other toxic glycoalkaloids, as well as solasodine, as being present in Solanum mauritianum, including solasodamine, solauricine and solauricidine.

Basically, tobacco bush, Solanum mauritianum, contains a toxic suite of glycoalkaloids.

N.B. 'Tobacco bush' should not be confused with true tobacco species, which are separate Nicotiana spp. of the same family.

what more can i do?

You could contact the people who you have sent DVDs to, using contact details that the distributors should have, and get a product recall going. I imagine it would be difficult, but it is the usual way of handling these things.

i will not make any more films on eatable plants because you are right i do not have the qualifications to properlly look at each plant.koa

Well, at least you have come to recognize that you don't have the skills base to give out wildfood advice in the public arena.

[PeterHardwick]

Koa, the toxicological issues with billy goat weed Ageratum conyzoides is bad enough....but even more serious is your recommendation for children to eat Ageratum houstonianum on Bush Tucker with Koa ...and on the DVD you also actually encourage people to overcome their natural aversion to its bitter taste!

The toxicological information on Ageratum houstonianum really is serious. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15303392
Not only is there the references to it causing hemorrhaging of internal organs, including the large muscle tissues, liver, kidney and heart, but other toxicological references to this species are equally serious for potential effects on long term health:

...intense pycnosis of hepatocyte nucleus with evolution to karryorhexis and karryolysis including cytoplasmolysis was found, which is indicative of primary hepatic lesions caused by the natural toxin.
Poisonous plants and related toxins, Volume 2001 By Thomas Acamovic, Colin S. Stewart, T. W. Pennycott.

Just to give you an interpretation of what that means: it's basically causing liver cells to 'dissolve', resulting in liver lesions. This could amount to permanent and irreversible liver damage.

Given that you use this species as 'billy goat weed' in BT with Koa, and given that it's more common than Ageratum conyzoides in many of the wet subtropical areas, it's fair to say that much of the billy goat weed being eaten as a result of your DVDs is likely be this species.

Also, Ageratum houstonianum has a more showy flower and probably more likely to get picked over Ageratum conyzoides, and end up in toxic salad mixes.

I think Ageratum conyzoides is toxic enough to be of major concern, but with Ageratum houstonianum the situation is worse - because the references to internal consumption that I've seen, only refer to poisoning.


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[PeterHardwick]

Koa, when some studies indicate that Ageratum conyzoides is toxic, and other studies indicate the opposite, that billy goat weed is not toxic - there's good reason for basing safety evaluation on the study that shows toxicity in the billy goat weed - because some methods will pick-up the toxicity and other methods wont. And when you have several studies indicating toxicity in Ageratum conyzoides, you definitely base your safety opinion on those studies. It's called the precautionary principle, ands it's what you have to do when doing wildfoods because otherwise you are risking peoples health and lives.

Here are some more toxicity references on Ageratum conyzoides:

- Sani et al., 1994, 'Preliminary study on the toxicity of Ageratum conyzoides (Babadotan) leaves in rats.'
"The common weed A. conyzoides is one of several plants suspected of causing hepatic cirrhosis and mortality in imported cattle in North Sumatra. "
And:
" Histopathological examination showed extensive liver lesions characterized by megalocytosis and bile duct cell proliferation. Although the analysis of pyrrolizidine alkaloid-like substances with hot methanol extraction was low (0.014%), the pathological changes seen in the liver were similar to those of alkaloid poisoning."

- Fu et al, 2002, 'Pyrrolizidine alkaloids - Tumorigenic Components in Chinese Herbal Medicines and Dietary Suppliments'
A. conyzoides listed as containing tumorigenic pyrrolizidine alkaloid citing lycopsamine as the primary tumorigenic PA.

- Fu et al, 2007, 'Detection, Hepatotoxicity, and Tumorigenicity of Pyrrolizidine Alkaloids in Chinese Herbal Plants and Herbal Dietary Suppliments'
A.conyzoides listed as containing tumorigenic pyrrolizidine alkaloid citing lycopsamine as the primary tumorigenic PA..

- Wagstaff, D.J., 2008, 'International poisonous plants checklist an evidence based reference'
Cites both A.houstonianum and A.conyzoides.

I've also been in contact with a top scientific pyrrolizidine alkaloid specialist to check on the toxicology of Ageratum, and he's quite adamant about the dangers of billy goat weed.

Also, with Ageratum conyzoides, it's not just one type of toxin, There are several types of toxins creating a toxic "cocktail" effect.

Also Koa, what surprised me, is that while you are saying that you are doing all you can to correct these mistakes, I find out that the Walking Softly series is still being marketed on the net. For example, billy goat weed and the faulty "Universal Edibility Test" are on #2 in the series.

[RedP]

Peter, thanks for the extensive research evidence. In my own research (in a different domain), when confronted by conflicting findings, views, or opinions, the wise and sensible position is firstly to adopt a precautionary approach, and secondly to do more research.

Therefore, in the absence of doing my own research, I must support the position of assuming the possibility of billy goat weed being toxic, even if only under certain circumstances, until there is incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.

It then follows logically that to disseminate a different view publicly, or to condone such dissemination, is at best poor research, and at worst irresponsible.

Cheers, Richard

[PeterHardwick]

Thank you Richard for your outline of the precautionary approach.

In regards to Ageratum, the other point is that it's known that both species in question contain pyrrolizidine alkaloids (PAs). The symptoms of poisoning for both species are characteristic of PA poisoning - especially the type of liver damage.

When it gets to this level of cross-referencing evidence, it's hard to conclude anything else other than billy goat weed being toxic.

[koa]

peter thank you for all the critisism honestly it has helped me imensly.and i want to apoligize for my early post taking this all personal does not help any one. we need to work together on this its so important from my perspective to get it it right as it were .in respect koa

[koa]

you have obviously not been around children to say they will eat bitter nasty stuff adults will not eat